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UAP Hearing Transcript
Glenn Grothman: The sub committee hearing on unidentified anomalous phenomena or UAPs will come to order. Welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. Additionally, without objection, the following members are waved on to the subcommittee for the purpose of participating in today’s hearing. Mister Birch of Tennessee, miss Luna, Florida, mister Gexa, Florida, mister Burleson of Missouri, missus Ocasio Cortez in New York and Mr. August of Tennessee, without objection so ordered for today’s subcommittee hearing, Both the chair and ranking member will have ten minutes for opening remarks. We may both be giving some of those minutes to other members of our party. I’m now gonna recognize myself for ten minutes. I’m actually gonna try to get out of here in about four, and then we’ll give it to some of my, friends over here. Good morning, and welcome to the mostly exciting set the most exciting subject committee in Congress this week. The sub committee on National Security of the Border and Foreign Affairs for discussion of unidentified anomalous phenomenon. I’d like to thank the brave military pilots and personnel such as wit, such as the witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they’ve engaged UAPs, which has brought attention to this matter. Curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have generated interest in studying what UAPs are and and what threats they they may pose. I will say that when I was younger in school, I read a book, a nineteen sixty six book called Flying Saisers, serious business, and for a while, when I was little bit younger. I thought it was the most important issue out there. The the lack of a transparency regarding UAPs, which was one of the, themes of that book. In any event, it’s it’s led interest in studying what UAPs are and what threats they pose. The lack of transparency regarding UAPs has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades eroding public trust in the very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them. As is evidenced by the large number of people we have here, I also wanna point out in nineteen sixty six, president, Gerald, claimed to have seen a UFO. And in nineteen sixty nine in Georgia, Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO. So This has led Congress to establish entities to examine UAPs, the National Defense Authorization Act of twenty twenty two, established the All domain anomaly resolution office or AARO to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and other federal agents federal agencies to detect, identify, and investigate UAPs. However, AARO’s budget remains classified, prohibiting meaningful oversight from Congress. In addition to ARO’s efforts, Nassau is leading an independent study on UAPs to identify how UAP that is gathered from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the top. However, despite these offices being established their lives of pressing demand for government transparency and accountability that cannot be overlooked. And that’s been a problem. It’s been around for fifty years. The Biden administration handling of the Chinese spy balloon that violated US air space is one example how the government is not prepared for these. The Biden administration’s description of events has shown that the government continues not to be forth, right? Between the Chinese balloon being shot down in two UAPs, subsequently shot down. Following the event earlier this year, the US government spent one and a half million dollars in taxpayer dollars on missiles yet we have seen little clarity from the Biden administration. We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, our Intelligent Community in our Defense Industry on the UAP work. We’re gonna ask some questions about that today. Congress recognized that the subject of UAP is multifaceted and requires a careful data driven approach. Today, we’ll see clarity from these witnesses testimonies. I will see clarity as to what can be done to improve reporting for military and civilians and remain committed to objective inquiry, Congress should work to ensure that knowledge is not driven by fear. Today, we are not just debating the existence of UAPs. We are deliberating on the principles that finance Republic, which is a commitment to transparency and accountability. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. About ways we can improve government efficiency and openness when it comes to UAPs. I thank each of you for your presence here today and for your dedication to safeguarding the interest of the American people. I look forward to your testimony, and I’m gonna turn it over for two and a half or three minutes to representative Birchett from Tennessee.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister chairman. Thank y’all for being here. I wanna thank everybody for making this happen today. And I wanna remind everybody this is a nonpartisan issue. This has nothing to do with party politics. I think, the cover up goes a lot deeper than that. I also wanna thank my colleagues, represent Vanapalina Luna sitting beside me here. Jared Moskowitz, my friend across the aisle is an incredible mind, and I’m anxious to hear his questions. My buddy Eric Burleson, And, it’s not in my notes here, but Matt Gates. If it hadn’t been for Matt Gates, myself him and Luna would still be down at Eglinton Airport space trying to get some answers. He’s got an incredible legal mind. Also, I know I saw it in the crowd there at George Knapp, my buddy, Jeremy Corbell. I’ve they’re not witnesses, but they’ve, provided some statements on this subject. And I seek unanimous consent to enter those statements into the record, mister chairman. Without objection. Also, would like to enter in. I understand now that this is unclassified in its public record, but as we all know, that’s sometimes difficult. For the public to get a hold of. Report defense intelligence, reference documents, advanced space, propulsion based on vacuum, space time metric engineering, some light reading for some of our members. Without objection. Thank you. You know, mister Nap, wrote since nineteen sixty nine, the position our military has been that UFO’s posed no threat to national security and are not worth worthy of further study. I’d say that’s the biggest understatement of the decade. He also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude and said odds with what was revealed in documents reports and internal memos. And mister Cabrell says, as he writes these words, the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance. I I can state that as a fact out there. I met a fella who came in here all the way from Denmark. To be here for this this meeting. So this is huge. This is worldwide. I think we, we suspect what’s going on, but I’d also like think the members of Congress have supported our efforts to make this hearing happen. Some have even confided to me that they’ve had UFO sightings of their own. Those members, of course, some of them wish to remain anonymous, and I’ll keep it that way. But also, finally, I’d like to thank the these three brave witnesses here. They took an oath. I took an oath to uphold the constitution in the United States, and dad, gimmick, they’re doing it. And we owe them a debt of gratitude. Y’all y’all quit clapping. You’re cutting in on my time. Just kidding. These folks, they’ve got nothing to gain from this. And I think you’re gonna find out that they’ve endured quite a few slings and arrows. We need to remember them in our prayers. And their families. And I’m thankful them for their honest testimonies. They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries like accidental truth to get their stories out there to and And now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress. I it’s been so difficult to get here today. I’ve said, you know, in the church, we’d say that the devil’s in our way. And, the devil’s been in our way through this thing. We’ve we’ve run into roadblocks from members from the intelligence community, the Pentagon. I proposed legislation to go in the FAA, reauthorization that just said if, if an airline pilot has a sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA, that it would come to Congress, but I was told that the intelligence community did not like that, and the bill was and the amendment was not even heard in committee. I think it’s time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon, they work for us. God gummit, we don’t work for them. And that’s exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency. We can’t trust a government that does not trust its people. We’re not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half y’all. We’re just gonna get to the facts. We’re gonna uncover the cover up, and I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this. And I yield back the remainder of my time. I think is it to representative Luna, mister chairman, or is that?
Glenn Grothman: Yeah. We’ll we’ll call him as Luna for her statement.
Anna Paulina Luna: The circumstances surrounding UIPs has captivated the intention of the American people for decades and granted even the minds of our nation’s leaders from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama. Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Radcliffe, to National Security Council officials. Yet from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jackson, Florida, the sightings of UIPs have rarely been explained by the people who have firsthand accounts of these situations. This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own government, and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of over classified documents that continue to be hidden from the American people. This isn’t just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about UAPs. One poll in particular found that sixty eight percent of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs and not being honest about what we know about them. And from my personal experience, I believe the same thing. Another poll found that nearly half Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings as representative Birchett just referenced on the FA bill that just went through, you can tell that that’s exactly happening. Considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people’s phones, and eyewitnesses accounts made by credible witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active duty service members, is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the potential of intelligence, intelligent life forms exist other than humans. Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of times service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences. In being an active duty service member working on airfield, I’ve had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution and or being taken off flight status. How do we know this? Because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also did nothing to, to calm the concerns of over twenty percent of Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs. Are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control. Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening with UAPs. But we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to stonewall our investigations. Just so that the press knows and the people know, we were even denied access to a classified briefing and a skip prior to this hearing due to the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grush who has knowledge of classified information. It is time to have an open minded discussion on this topic to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means, not just for our nation, but for humanity. Thank you, chairman. I yield back the rest of my time.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you very much. And I’d like to thank you thank you and Mr. Birchett for bringing this topic to my attention. Now we’ll recognized national security sub community ranking member Garcia for ten minutes.
Robert Garcia: Thank you, mister chairman, and I wanna thank first our witnesses for joining us today. I wanna begin by thanking you all for your service to our country. And for sharing your voices, today and your courage, to be here as well, to mister Graves, particularly grateful to you to spend some time, that we had for you to share with candor, some of your experiences. So I appreciate that, as well. I do wanna thank all the members of our sub committee today. Also those that are here, and have waved on for the their incredible interest in this issue, particularly to congressman Birchhead. I know that your leadership has brought us to this place today and I wanna thank you for, for that as well as everyone else that’s been engaged in this work. I also wanna thank the oversight staff I know has been working very hard to ensure, that today’s hearing is serious that it’s transparent and that it also provides, appropriate answers as our oversight body. Always demands. Now it’s really important that we’re here in a bipartisan way, to have this conversation, which really, to the heart of it, is about national security, and key to the sub committee’s core purpose. This is the sub committee on national security of the oversight committee. Now our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed a serious safety threat, and we must understand this. More broadly, we’re dealing with real questions that get to the heart of our faith and government. Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all time low. Participants and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative or into or our institutions. But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the independent media. Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking two, twenty seventeen New York Times report, which we which revealed research as we know now, on unidentified anomalous phenomena or as many call UFOs by the defense intelligence agency. Mr. Graves and Commander Ferver’s experiences with UAPs have also been documented by the public, not just by the New York Times, but CNN and many other national news outlets. Now the office of the director of National Intelligence has published public reports documenting UAPs. And on June ninth twenty twenty two, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study to, of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena. Now the sheer number of reports, wilson blowers, and stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight. And that’s why we are here today. Now pilots have reported encounters for years. Now because of the stigma around reporting these incidents, we still don’t have a complete picture of actually what’s going on. Particularly, as your witnesses will testify, on the civilian side, and that is a real problem that we have today in the country. Now it’s very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner. If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process. Now I understand fully that Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft. Our sensors and other sensitive material. At the same time, many people believe that we’re withholding information from them. And that is dangerous also. I believe in openness and transparency that is also the role of Congress, and I wanna trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds. Now we have incidents, word sensors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors detect things that we cannot explain. UAPs, whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft, and that must be understood. Now my career in training as a long time and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule anything out. We know that our space, of course, is vast and undiscovered. I also wanna note that mister Sean Crick Patrick, director of the all domain anomaly resolution office, The component of the DOD office that investigates UAP data has testified before the Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of extraterrestrial activity. NASA has also stated that they don’t have evidence of extraterrestrial life either. And we’ve heard this, of course, from some of our government agencies. And we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important that we also cannot share classified information in public settings. But questions, of course, remain that people wanna see data and information for themselves. The enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives. Now, I know I certainly have a lot of questions, and I know that all the members of our committee do as well. We should come to this hearing with an open mind, and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either side. I hear over and over from many agencies stigma around reporting and investigating UAPs prevents us from getting real answers. We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment intimidation or stigma as well. And this is not acceptable. If people can’t report incidents, which would have national security or safety implications, then that also has serious consequences for us. As ranking member of this sub committee, I know it’s my I know my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee. We can’t be afraid of asking questions, and we can’t be afraid of the truth. I’m proud to say that this that this hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the house and senate dating many years back, which has sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense, and more and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs. We know the senator is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill, which will create a commission with broad declassification authority, and we can all should all agree that that is an important step. Members of both parties and senior officials in multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue, and we’re proud to carry and build that confidence in the American people. This hearing will also not be the end of this discussion, but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks both in both in the public and within government have been working on. We should encourage more reporting, not less on UAPs. The more they under we understand the safer we will be. We will cure testimony from witnesses today with a long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise. Art witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the perspective insights and their experiences with the American people. And I encourage all of my call colleagues to to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts on behalf of our country. I also just wanna say more broadly that we should look at this hearing with and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to piece. I think we an open mind is absolutely the best. I wanna yield their their two and a half minutes to the remainder of my time to the representative from Florida, representative of Moskovitz, for an opening statement. He also has been, very much engaged in this issue, and I wanna thank him, for his leadership. Congressman.
Jared Moskowitz: Thank you, ranking member Garcia. Thank you, mister chairman. I wanna thank, Tim Burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their leadership in pushing this hearing forward. I wanna thank, obviously, committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan basis, because many Americans are deeply interested in this issue, and it it shouldn’t take the potential of non human origin to bring us together. Additionally, I want to thank the witnesses for for coming forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts, your and the sightings of UAPs. Unlike other hearings, many times in Congress, you’re not here to help a political party, but you’re here to share information with the American people. And it’s not something that is just going on in this administration. It’s something that’s spanned many administrations. For decades, many Americans have been fascinated by objects, mysterious, and unexplained and it’s long past time that they got some answers. The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account. Though, that is a direct quote from majority leader, Chuck Schumer, that the American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. In an interview with Fox News, recent former director of National Intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed The US government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they have not made that information public. I quote, There are a lot more sightings that have not been made public, Radcliffe, said, to Fox News. For me, this hearing is about transparency. We unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions. And over classification of information, away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today’s politics. The American people have regular questions. What are UAPs? How come the media doesn’t report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are they US technology? Are they something else? They ask themselves, how come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones, we have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world. But when it comes to UAPs, nothing. Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority, like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist, but were used in the Osama bin laden raid in two thousand and eleven. But we can’t allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths. The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs, Congress has a right to know if there’s any unsanctioned weapons development, satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress. Congress created the all domain resolution office in the NDA of twenty twenty two. In its initial analysis, there are a hundred and seventy one uncharacterized UAP reports, and this is the words from the report that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities I believe more information is known about the hundred and seventy one instances. It’s time for Congress to reinsert ourselves, I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about UAPs. And to our military leaders, if there’s nothing to conceal, let Congress go to write Patterson Air Force Base. The dugway proving ground or even groom Lake in Nevada. We should have disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time has come. Thank you, Rocky Member.
Robert Garcia: Thank you, mister Moskowitz, and I would yield back now to our chairman. Thank you.
Glenn Grothman: Right. Now I’d like to introduce our witnesses, our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He’s the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former US Navy F eighteen pilot with his own U UAP experience. The next witness, David Grush, as a former senior intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical adviser for UAP issues. And final finally retired Navy commander David Fraver, squadron leader who worked as a naval aviator for eighteen years, mister Frever has his own UAP experience known as the TikTok event. I look forward to hearing from all three of you today. Pursuant to committee rule nine g. The witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony. I’ll remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please try to limit your oral statements to five minutes As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it’s on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green after four minutes, it’ll turn yellow and the red light when that comes on, it, tells you your five minutes have expired. I’ll now recognize Mr. Graves, for five minutes for your opening statement.
Ryan Graves: Thank you. Chairman Groffman ranking member Garcia distinguished members of the House Oversight sub committee on National security, representatives, Burchett, and Luna. My name is Ryan Bobs Graves, and I’m a former FA team pilot with a decade service in the US Navy, including two deployments in operation enduring freedom and operation inherent resolve. I have experienced advanced UAP firsthand I’m here to voice the concerns of more than thirty commercial aircrew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me. Today, I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action. As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace, but they are grossly underreported These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine. Military aircrew and commercial pilots trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification are frequently witnessing these phenomena. The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses. It is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony. Parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden. Since twenty twenty one, all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding, but fuels speculation and mistrust. In twenty fourteen, I was an f eighteen foxtrot pilot in the Navy fighter attack squadron, eleven, the Red Rippers. And I was stationed at NES, Oceana, in Virginia Beach. After upgrades were made to our jet’s radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace. At first, we assumed they were radar errors, but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems eventually through visual ID. During a training mission in morning area whiskey seventy two, ten miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two f eighteen super hornets were split by UAP. The object described as a dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere came within fifty feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be five to fifteen feet in diameter. The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base. Our squadron submitted a safety port, but there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings. Soon, these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular preflight briefs. Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses who are pre unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process. More than thirty witnesses have come forward and almost five thousand Americans have joined us in the fight for a transparency at safe aerospace dot org. The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at majority major airlines. Often, they are veterans with decades of flying experience. Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at forty thousand feet, potentially in low earth orbit or in the gray zone below the Carmen line. Making inexplicable maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits or j hooks. Sometimes these reports are reoccurring. With numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic. Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace. And oceans. The most compelling involve observations of UIP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so. In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic. If everyone can see the sensor and video data eyewitness, our national conversation would change. I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents. UIP are foreign drones is an urgent national security problem. If it is something else, it is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are concerned for flight safety. The American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue. Thank you.
Glenn Grothman: Mister Grusch?
David Grusch: Mr chairman, ranking members in congressman. Thank you. I’m happy to be here. This is an important issue, and I’m grateful for your time. My name is David Charles Grush. I was an intelligence officer for fourteen years in the both in the US Air Force, both active duty, international guard and reserve. At the rank of major and most recently from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty five, or excuse me, twenty twenty three. At the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, NGA, at the GS fifteen civilian level, which is, the military equivalent of a full bird colonel. I was my agency’s co lead in unidentified anomalous phenomena and Transmedium object analysis, as well as reporting to the UAP task force. UAPTF, and eventually once it was established, the all domain anomaly resolution office arrow. I became a whistleblower through a PPD nineteen urgent concern filing in, May twenty twenty two with the intelligence community inspector general. Following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the US government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to UAPs. My testimony is based on information I’ve been given by individuals with a long standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country. Many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography. Official documentation and classified oral testimony to myself and many of my various colleagues. I have taken every step I can to corroborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP task force. And do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. This is because of these steps, I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you. I am driven by a commitment of both, to truth and transparency. Rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I’m asking Congress to hold our government to the standard and thoroughly investigate these claims. But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I’ve been told them. In the US Air Force, in my national reconnaissance office, NRO reservist capacity, I was a member of the UAP task force from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. I served at the Interrow Operation Center on the director’s briefing staff, which included the coordination of the presidential daily brief and supporting variety of contingency operations, which I was the Reserve Intelligence Division Chief, backup. In two thousand nineteen, the UAP task force director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs, also known as Sapps and Capps. We needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated mission, and we were direct report at the time to, the depth sector. At the time, due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust, both in my military and civilian capacities. I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi decade, UAP, crash retrieval, and reverse engineering program. To which I was denied access to those additional read ons when I, requested it. I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my superior, superiors, and multiple inspectors general, and in effect becoming a whistleblower. As you know, I’ve suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of, increased transparency. Thank you, and I’m happy to answer your questions.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. Commander Fravor,
David Fravor: thank you. Thank you, mister chairman, congressmen, congresswomen. Wanna first thank you for the invitation to speak to the committee on the UAP topic. There’s been a news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum. As you know, my name is David Fraver. I’m a retired commander in the United States Navy. In two thousand four, I was a commanding officer of strike fighter squadron forty one, the world famous Black Aces. If you’re attached to carrier wing eleven Station onboard the US’s nimitz and have begun a two month workup cycle off the coast of California, On this day, we were scheduled for a two v two air to air training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we launched off Nuance, my Wingman was joining We were told that the training was gonna be suspended, and we were doing we’re going to proceed with real world tasking. We proceeded to the west, the air controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to, and we were unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived. They’re, the controller told us that these objects, had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over eighty thousand feet. Rapidly descending to twenty thousand feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up for those that don’t realize above eighty thousand feet is space. We arrived at the location at approximately twenty thousand feet in a controller called merge plot, which means that our radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact. As we looked around, we noticed that we saw some whitewater off our right side. It’s important to note that the weather on this day was as close to the perfect as you could ask for off the coast San Diego, clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps from waves. So the white water stood out in a large blue ocean. All four of us because we were an f eighteen f, so we had pilots and whizzo in the back seat. Looked down a small saw white Tic Tac object with a longitudinal access pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball. There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings. As we started clockwise towards the object, my wizard and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying in high cover to observe both us and the TikTok. We proceeded around the circle about ninety degrees from the start of our descent, and the object odd objects suddenly shifted its longitudinal access align it with my aircraft and be and to climb. We continue down another two hundred and seventy degrees nose low where the Tic Tac are we consume two hundred and seventy degrees toward and we wet nose load where the Tic Tac would have been. Our altitude at this point was about fifteen thousand feet and the Tic Tac was about twelve as we pulled nose onto the object, within about a half mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman roughly eight thousand feet above us lost contact also. We immediately turned back to see where the white water was at, and it was gone also. So as you started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, sir, you’re not gonna believe this, but that thing is at your point, roughly sixty miles away in less than a minute. You can calculate the speed. We returned an image. We were taken off our gear. We were talking to one of my crews who was getting ready to launch. We mentioned it to him. And they went out and luckily got the video that you see that ninety second video. What you don’t see is the radar tape that was never released, and we don’t know where it’s at. Of the act of jamming that the object put on an APG seventy three radar, and I can get into modes later if you’re interested. What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew question and tapes were never taken. And after a couple days, it turned into a great story with friends. It wasn’t until two thousand nine till Jay Stratton had contact me to investigate Unbano stall. He was part of the ATIP program in the Pentagon led by Lou Alzando. And there was an unofficial official report that came out that’s now on the internet. Years later, I was contacted by the other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I’d been contacted. And I said, no, but I’m willing to talk. I was contacted by mister Elizondo, And, we talked for a a short period of time, and he said we’d be, in contact. A few weeks after that, I was made aware that Lewis left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom De Long, Chris Mel, and Steve Justice, and others to form two stars academy, an organization that pressed the issue with leading industry experts and US government officials, They worked with Leslie Keane, who was present today throughout Bloomingthal and Helene Cooper to publish the articles in the New York Times twenty seventeen, New York Times. And it removed the stigma on the topic of UFOs, which is why we’re here today. Those articles open the door for the government and public that cannot be closed. Is led to an interest from our elected officials who are not focused on little green men, but figuring out where these craft are, where they from, the technology they possess, how do they operate? Also led to the whistleblower Protection Act in the NDA. There are multiple witnesses coming forward to say, that have firsthand knowledge and and mister Grush just covered that. What concerns me is that there’s no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on craft. Believe not from this world. This issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine national security, but it is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances works across all work done in the government using taxpayer funds. Relative to government programs, even unacknowledged wave programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate. And this work that is said to be occurring from whistleblower testimony should not be exempt. In closing, I would like to say that the TikTok object we engaged in two thousand four was far superior to anything that we had on time, half today, or looking to develop in the next ten years. If we in fact have programs that possess this technology and needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected an office to represent what is best for the United States, and best for the citizens. I thank you for your time. Thank you very much.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you very much. I know it’s very difficult for all of you. All you’ve done in the past to try to illuminate this issue. Call on myself first for some questions. I’m gonna start with mister Graves. Are your pilots Our pilots that you interact with as part of your organization, do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with UAPs?
Ryan Graves: No. Right now, military witnesses to UAP have limited options for reporting UAP. But more more concerning is that commercial aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military has implemented. The military and department of defense has stated that UAP represent critical aviation safety risk. We have not seen that that same, that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this Okay.
Glenn Grothman: What steps do you think you have to be taken to improve a pilot CAP reporting be it military or commercial?
Ryan Graves: Right now, we need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. There is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead professional repercussions either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check. So having a secure system, reducing the stigma, and making this available this information available through the public is going to reduce, the concerns that aircrew have.
Glenn Grothman: Could you just give me a little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are are not made public right now?
Ryan Graves: Well, I don’t think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. So to answer your question, I think there is a dearth of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time.
Glenn Grothman: Could you tell me why you believe it’s Kinda to play the devil’s advocate a reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public?
Ryan Graves: There’s certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors in our tactical jets to be able to identify these these objects. However, there’s no reason that the objects themselves would be classified. I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different, nuances of how this topic is classified from the from the perspective of UAP, not national security.
Glenn Grothman: I’ll give you a follow-up on that. Assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public, This has been around for a long period of time. Can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to, UAP say fifteen years in batch should not be immediately made public?
David Grusch: I think one of it is, acknowledging, a vulnerability, both from a collection, and I’ll just say a, you know, countermeasure perspective So it’s that we haven’t cracked for many years. Yeah.
Glenn Grothman: Even say twenty years back. Is there any reason why when you go back that far thing shouldn’t be made public?
David Grusch: Unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates, to a weakness in particular’s defenses.
Glenn Grothman: Oh, okay. Mister Frever, the TikTok incident that you that with that you were engaged occurred in two thousand and four. What kind of reporting took place after that incident?
David Fravor: None, we had a standard debrief where the back seaters went down to our, carrier Intel Center and briefed what had happened. And that was it. No one else talked to us. And I was in the top twenty in the battle group. No one came. That captain was aware. Adam was aware. Nothing was done.
Glenn Grothman: You’re commanding officers provide any sort of justification?
David Fravor: No. Cause I was a commanding officer on the squadron. So, no.
Glenn Grothman: Was this incident the only UAP event that you encountered while you were a pilot?
David Fravor: Yes, it was.
Glenn Grothman: This is for any one of you based on based off of each of your experiences and observations, Do you believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security?
David Fravor: Yes. And here’s why. The the technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had, and you could put that anywhere. If you if you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work, you’re talking something Go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants, and leave, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Nothing.
Ryan Graves: I would also like to add from, commercial aviation and military aviation perspective. We deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of, of our protection, professional actions, identifying friend from foe is is very important to us. And so when we have unidentified targets, and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or a fear of what it could be, that’s an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of.
Glenn Grothman: What what what, steps should be taken to better understand and respond to UAP encounters in the interest of national security?
Ryan Graves: There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing, and there needs to be a two way communication loop so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can can get best practices on how to process information, what to do, and to ensure that they they their reporting is being listened too. Right now, there is not a lot of back and forth.
Glenn Grothman: Mister Grush, in your complaint to the intelligence community inspector, you inspector general, you claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden?
David Grusch: Yes. I could speak to that very briefly in unclassified manner as, you know, the preponderance of my complaint classified to the intelligence communities, both, material acquisition and exploitation activity also, baselining the UAPs, but not sharing it with, you know, intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs to pilots, that that kind of information. Yeah.
Glenn Grothman: Okay. Thank you very much. Now we’ll go to Mr. Garcia.
Robert Garcia: Thank you. Again, thank you all for for your service and for testifying today. Wanna just, talk about the UAPs as it relates to what we’re seeing in the pilot’s interaction with UAPs. Particularly, mister Graves, one of the concerns that for members of this committee is this idea that pilots, there’s no system that actually report EAPs and the stigma around pilots. And so could you, can you just briefly, you mentioned that they’re you’re working with thirty pilots right now that have had encounters with UAPs. But you’ve also, I believe, discussed and know of many more pilots. This is just those that you’re currently working with. Is that correct? Can you expand on that?
Ryan Graves: Certainly. I’ll I’ll break that down two ways. First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the Eastern Sea board in the twenty fourteen to twenty fifteen time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects So there was a large number of my colleagues, that were detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard. They were fur further correlating that information with the other onboard sensors. And many of them also had their own eyesightings as well of these objects. Now that was our personal first, firsthand experience at the time. Since then, as I’ve engaged this topic, others have reached out to me to share their experiences both, on the military side, as well as a commercial aviation side. On the military aviation side, veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we are seeing in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, continued all the way to twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, and beyond. And so it became a generational issue for naval aviators on the Eastern Seaboard. This was something we are briefing, to new students. This is something that was included in the notice to airmen to ensure that there was no, accidents And now with commercial aviators, they are reaching out because they’re having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do not have any reporting system that they can send us to.
Robert Garcia: And and let me just add to and both both to to, mister Frever, as well as mister Graves, not having the system for for reporting would you both agree that it’s harmful to not just our national security interests, but to understand this phenomenon of what’s happening with UAPs?
David Fravor: I think it’s actually a travesty that we don’t have a system to correlate this and actually investigate. You know, so if you took the East Coast, you know, there’s there’s there’s coastal radars out there that monitor our air defense identification zone, so out to two hundred miles. They contract these, you know, so when you see them, they could actually go and pull that data and and get maneuvering. And and instead of just having the airplanes, there’s other data sources out there. And I’ve talked to other government officials on this. So you need a centrally located repository that these reports go to. So if you just stuck it in DOD, you wouldn’t get anything out of the intelligence committee because have a tendency not to talk. But if you had a central location where these reports are coming in, not just military, but also commercial aviation because there’s a lot of that going on, especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii, over the Pacific they see odd lights. So I think you need to develop something that allows you a central point to collect the data in order to investigate. Mister Graves?
Ryan Graves: I would concur with everything. Mister Fraver said. I’ll continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through American InterSafe Aerospace are doing so because they don’t feel there’s another way for them to report this safety issue.
Robert Garcia: And I think one of the clear outcomes of this hearing already, is that there has to be a safe and transparent reporting process for pilots, both on the commercial side and the military side to be able to report EAPs in a way that’s also transparent, but also understands the scope of our of our national security interests, and what, may be classified or not, but I think there has to be some sort of system. And so that’s something that I hope can be an outcome that this committee can, can work on. Is there anything else for just for the two of you briefly beyond the reporting system that you think that we can do as a government to encourage and facilitate more civilian reporting on this.
Ryan Graves: I’m still doing it right now.
Robert Garcia: Okay. Great.
Ryan Graves: I think this hearing is is going to show the American people that their government takes this topic seriously.
Robert Garcia: And how and and how about civilians that may not be pilots? What kind of process could be in place for civilians who are not pilots who may have UAP encounters Do either of you have any suggestions that could facilitate that?
Ryan Graves: My recommendations would make, would be to make that a sense a sensor centric operation in order to make it as objective as possible.
Robert Garcia: Okay. Sir, mister Freiver?
David Fravor: No. I agree with mister Graves on that.
Robert Garcia: Okay. Just just just briefly. I also just want to, note for particularly for the two pilots and have a question for mister Grush. One of the things that I found fascinating in our discussion, mister Graves, last night, as well, is that you both described UAPs and formations and the way they they they they are, observed in space or or in our air, and the way that they move is essentially, ways in which current technology or aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move. And so when you just pour the public record, again, once once again, just, briefly, just either describe or note that aircraft that we witness, particularly by the thirty folks that you’re working with, are essentially outside the scope of anything that we know of today and the technology we have today. Mr. Graves, mister Freiver?
Ryan Graves: Yes. The objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are, performing maneuvers that are unexplained well due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country. And that applies for the military as well. Mister mister mister.
David Fravor: Yeah. I concur with that. We have nothing that can stop in mid air and go the other direction nor do we have anything that can like in our situation, come down from space, hang out for three hours, and go back up. Thank
Robert Garcia: you. My last question. And so and sometimes you I know that some you have also said some of these answers in the past. We’re trying to get them on the public record as well, which is really important. Mr. Gresh, finally, do you believe that our government is in possession of UAPs?
David Grusch: Absolutely based on interviewing, over forty witnesses over four years.
Robert Garcia: And and where?
David Grusch: I know the exact locations, and and those locations were provided to the inspector general and some of which to the intelligence committees, I actually had the people with the firsthand knowledge provide a protected disclosure to the inspector general. Thank
Robert Garcia: you. And mister chairman, I would just say that I think that these questions are important questions, and I look forward to being involved in the process to get those answered. I know there’ll be a lot of questions for other community members, so I yield back.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. We’ll go to mister Richard himself.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, mister Garcia. I would like to have you on the my legislation to do just that on the on the reporting. And we’ll get together on that. Maybe you can be my co sponsor on that. That’d be really cool. Thank you for those great questions. Mister Graves, again, I’d like to know, how do you know that these were not our aircraft?
Ryan Graves: Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area, we would see these objects, being at zero point zero mach. That’s zero air speed. Over certain pieces of the ground. So what that means, just like a river, if you throw a bobber in, it’s gonna float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary and category for hurricane winds. These same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds, one point one, one point two mach. And they would do so in very erratic and behavior is that we don’t I don’t have an explanation for.
Tim Burchett: Okay. If you’ve spoken to, commercial and military pilots, that have seen these off of our East Coast. I have. Okay. Mister Fravor, I noticed that, in the TikTAC video, it’s TikTAC, like the candy. Not TikTok like the Chinese communist app.
David Fravor: That’s correct.
Tim Burchett: Yes, sir. I just wanna make that because my daughter corrected me on that and called me a boomer and said, hey, boomer. And I said, no, baby. It’s tick pack like the candy. You’re gonna have to just look it up. And, But now I would like to say today is a is a day of many first. It’s, miracle that we’re having this this meeting, and it’s also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for nine years today. Today is my anniversary. So I wanna tell my wife happy anniversary, and that I love her very much. As she likes to say, this nine years have been the best two years of her life. So thank you. Mister favor, What what astonished you the most about the the flight capabilities of these Tic Tac very briefly?
David Fravor: The performance. Absolute performance. It was
Tim Burchett: And you’re you’re not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world. That has those capabilities?
David Fravor: No. I think it’s far beyond actually our material science that we currently possess.
Tim Burchett: Are you aware of any other reconnaissance platforms that attract or recorded the Tic Tacs maneuvers, maybe the NorAD system or any of the others?
David Fravor: I am not.
Tim Burchett: Okay. Mr. Grush, thank you for being here, brother. Thank you all very much. Have you faced any retaliation or approvals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines?
David Grusch: Yeah. I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open, whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I don’t wanna compromise that investigation. By providing anything that may, help provide somebody information, but it was very brutal. And very unfortunate. Some of the tactics they used to, hurt me both professionally and, and personally, to be quite frank. Yeah.
Tim Burchett: It’s very unfortunate, as they say, when you’re open to Target, that’s when they do the most fire fire in action. Do you have any personal knowledge of people who’ve been harmed or injured? In efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology? Yes. Personally. Have you heard have anyone been murdered that you would th that you know of or have heard of, I guess?
David Grusch: I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities.
Tim Burchett: Might be in a, if we could
David Grusch: get
Tim Burchett: a get in a confidential area of skiff, we could talk about that. But unfortunately, we were denied access to the skiff And that’s very unfortunate in this in this scenario. Mister Faver, You believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water in relation to your encounter?
David Fravor: I will say we did not seeing object, there were something there to cause the white water. And when we turned around, it was gone. So there was something there that obviously moved.
Tim Burchett: Okay. It was it was not the same object though that you were you were looking at. Correct?
David Fravor: No. We actually joked that the Tic Tac was communicating with something when we came back and could because the white water disappeared.
Tim Burchett: We were ins in another instance, we’re told about the capabilities of of a jamming during viewing of some when there were some people chasing some of these objects. Did you experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapons system?
David Fravor: My crew that launched after we landed experienced significant jamming to the APG seventy three radar, which was what we had on board, which is a mechanically scanned very high end, system prior to the APG seventy nine. And, yes, it did pretty much everything you could do, range, velocity, aspect, and then it spit the and the targeting pod is passive. That’s what we’re able to get the video on.
Tim Burchett: I’m about to run out of time, but, are you aware of any of our enemies that have that capability? No. Okay. I would also like to note for the record that, like George Nap breaking area fifty one, he’s the reason I knew about that. And the reason I know that the Tic Tac is, is Leslie Cain, from New York Times’ article, and I would encourage everybody to read that. Thank you, mister chairman. You’ll go back to the no time.
Glenn Grothman: Very good. Mr. Askin.
Jamie Raskin: Thank you, mister chairman. Mister Graves, You reported UAP encounters, during training flights, I think, and have since come forward to warn the Pentagon that these encounters may be putting pilots at risk. My first question is, You’ve identified these as taking place on the East Coast. Is it just on the East Coast where these encounters have been reported?
Ryan Graves: No. Since the events initially occurred, I’ve learned that the objects have been detected essentially where, all operations, navy operations are being conducted across the world. And that’s from, the all domain anomaly resolutions office reporting.
Jamie Raskin: Alright. Can you describe your experience after you decided to come forward? And, go public with your, experience.
Ryan Graves: Certainly. Like many others, in twenty seventeen, I saw the New York Times article come out, as well. And for me, it was it was special because I recognized the voices on the video. I recognized the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken. I’ve seen it when it was debriefed. And so that was kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing. And so I reached out to colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with, that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. Was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward myself.
Jamie Raskin: Are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been excited by different pilots, and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is?
Ryan Graves: Certainly. We were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere?
Jamie Raskin: I’m sorry. Dark gray or black cubes?
Ryan Graves: Yes. Inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere. And that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects. And that occurred over almost eight years. And as far as I know, it still occurred.
Jamie Raskin: So the I take it that you’re arguing what we need is real transparency in a reporting system so we can get some clarity on what’s going on out there because there are many pilots in your situation. But we should have a a way of developing a sys systematic inventory of all of such encounters. Is that right?
Ryan Graves: Yes. And I think we need both transparency and the reporting. We have the reporting, but we need to make sure that information can be promulgated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace.
Jamie Raskin: Mister Grush, what what about you? What was your experience after you came forward?
David Grusch: Well, it’s only been in about two months or so. So I guess my experience has been, you know, overwhelming support from a former colleagues of mine that have, you know, privately messaged me. And I do appreciate that. But I I do have knowledge of, active planned, reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues. And it’s very, very upsetting to me.
Jamie Raskin: Coming from where?
David Grusch: Certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with. And that’s all I’ll say publicly, but I can provide more details in a closed environment
Jamie Raskin: Okay. Well, I hope you understand that, there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify demonize or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective.
David Grusch: Yeah. There were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked, and it, you know, actually makes me very upset, as a leader, to see that happen to other coworkers and actually superiors of mine over the last three years.
Jamie Raskin: How did you account for that response? That’s that seems like a bizarre response.
David Grusch: I call it administrative terrorism. That’s their their quiver, their tool in the toolbox, to silence people, especially you know, the, career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, the reputation to climb the ladder. And when you threaten that, flow, career path, a lot of people back off. But I’m here to represent those people. So
Jamie Raskin: mister Frever, what what about you? What has your experience been since you’ve come forward with your perspective on this?
David Fravor: Actually, I’ve been treated very well. And the six people that were involved myself included, all of them have or will be retiring from the military as o five zero sixes, And all my friends that are very senior, three and four stars, I’ve talked to them. They they believe they they understand there’s a problem, but now I’ve I was actually treated really well.
Jamie Raskin: And and what is your general interpretation, of these phenomena? Or what is your current thinking of trying to make sense of them.
David Fravor: Well, I’ll say, you know, I’m not like a UFO fanatic. It’s not it’s not me. But I will tell you that what we saw with four sets of eyes over a five minute period still, there’s nothing. We have nothing close to it. It was it was amazing to see. I told my buddy I wanted to fly it, but yeah, it’s just an incredible technology.
Jamie Raskin: Alright. Mister chairman, thank you very much. I’ll yield back to you.
Glenn Grothman: Thanks. I’m name is Luma.
Anna Paulina Luna: Mr. Grush, in speaking to you yesterday, I just wanted to follow-up on representative raskins questions. In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life? For addressing these issues?
David Grusch: Yes. Personally. K.
Anna Paulina Luna: I just want everyone to note that he’s coming forward in fear of his life put in perspective, if they were really not scared about this information coming out, why would someone be intimidated like that? To your knowledge, our NHIs working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs.
David Grusch: I don’t have data on that. I’m not sure.
Anna Paulina Luna: Have you heard or you had people come forward to present that evidence?
David Grusch: Not that particular evidence that you just espoused.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. On the nineteenth of April, Doctor. Kerpatrick head of Arrow had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. You also stated that you had, in your interview that you’d briefed him on information that you are uncovering, but that he did not follow-up with you. Were the items that you divulged to him pertinent to national security?
David Grusch: Yes. Him and I had a classified conversation in April twenty twenty two before he took over Arrow in July two, twenty twenty two, and I provided him some concerns I had.
Anna Paulina Luna: Do you know why he might not have fallen up with you?
David Grusch: Unfortunately, I cannot read his mind. I wish he did. I was I was happy to give Sage Council to him on, where to look when he took the the helm of arrow.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. And then my last question for you before I moved to Mr. Graves, is, you received prior approval from the defense department to speak certain issues. Correct?
David Grusch: Correct. Through, do. D. Pre publication and security review. And, just wanna remind the public they’re just looking from a security perspective. These are my own personal views and opinions, not the departments.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. I’m I’m asking that though mainly because I think that they’re many people that would like to discredit you. So it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony.
David Grusch: I’m required by law to do that as a former intelligence officer or I go to jail. For revealing classified information. Yeah.
Anna Paulina Luna: We don’t want you to go to jail. My next question would actually be for mister Graves’s Can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at Vanderberg Air Force Base?
Ryan Graves: Certainly. In the two thousand and three time frame, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Fanderburg Air four space when they observed a very large hundred yard sided, red square, approach the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about forty five seconds or so before darting off over the mountains. There was a similar event within twenty four hours later in the evening. This was a morning event. I believe eight forty five in the morning. Later in the evening post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors, these objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds, before darting off And this is information that was received through one of the, witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace.
Anna Paulina Luna: Was this documented in any official form, whether it was police blotter?
Ryan Graves: Yes. They had official documentation and records from the event that they witnessed, held over the years.
Anna Paulina Luna: And not gonna ask you to do it right now for time reasons, but you’d be able to sketch what was when it’s correct. And you’ve have you seen that before on any other equipment and or during your flight time?
Ryan Graves: I have not seen what they have described. This object was, estimated to be almost a size of a football field, and I have not seen anything personally in that large.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. And then, another question on follow-up, referencing the Gimbal video Go Fast incident. Can you just clarify because to our understanding the footage was actually cut off at a certain point. But what happens at the end of that video, just for those Americans specifically there that are wanting to know about the rest of that footage?
Ryan Graves: Certainly. There was some uncertainty or, you know, instability with the object. It it seemed to rock a bit. And that’s the last last I had seen in the video. Much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data, that would provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. And follow-up, in regards to the reporting procedures that mister Garcia had addressed on as well as, representative bur Bercett with the FAA, to your understanding, pilots that are seeing this commercial airline pilots, are they receiving, cease and desist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to safety for potential air airline passengers.
Ryan Graves: I have been made privy to a conversation with commercial, aviators who have received seasoned assist orders.
Anna Paulina Luna: So the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations on the basic not the line, but ahead of the safety of the American people, and I think would you agree with that statement?
Ryan Graves: It appears so.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. And I guess this would be my last I’m out of time. I yelled. I’ll be back.
Glenn Grothman: Oh, good. Mr. Moskowitz.
Jared Moskowitz: Thank you, mister chairman. Gentlemen, let’s talk about the laws of physics for a second. Mister Graves, and and commander favor, I heard you talk about speed. When those objects broke, the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom?
David Fravor: Thousand a day. You can’t hear anything. It’s kinda loud in there.
Ryan Graves: Yeah. You you’re not able to actually, personally tell within the I will say the objects that we were seeing, they were spherical, and they were observed up to Mach two, which is a very in, non aerodynamic shape.
Jared Moskowitz: What about g forces? Let’s talk about g forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those g forces with known technology today?
David Fravor: No. No. Not for the acceleration rates that we observed.
Jared Moskowitz: K. What about what they look like? How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section. And what I mean is, obviously, the jets you’re flying have all those things. Did these objects have those?
David Fravor: Wanna go ride?
Ryan Graves: I didn’t have I didn’t have the detail to be able to tell that.
David Fravor: So we got within a half mile at Tic Tac, which people say that’s pretty far, but it’s in airplanes that’s actually relatively close. No. It was perfectly white, smooth, no windows. Although when we did take the original flir video that is out there, when you put it on a big screen, it actually had two little objects came out of the bottom of it. But other than that, no no windows, no seams, no nothing.
Jared Moskowitz: Mister Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non human origin craft?
David Grusch: Yes. I personally interviewed those individuals.
Jared Moskowitz: Mister Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about AT’s advanced technologies that the US government
David Grusch: based on conventional advanced tech, I was briefed to, the preponderance of the defense departments both space and aerospace compartment of programs. Yeah.
Jared Moskowitz: Do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned? Yes. I do. Okay.
Ryan Graves: Yeah.
Jared Moskowitz: And and when you say that they’re above congressional oversight, what do you mean?
David Grusch: Complicated question. So there’s, you know, some, I would call it abuse here. So congressional oversight of Conventional special access programs, so I’ll use title tens or DOD as an example. Right? So ten US code section one nineteen discusses congressional oversight of SAP discusses, the the depth sec def’s ability to waive congressional reporting. However, the gang of eight is at least supposed to be notified if, you know, waived or waived bigoted, unacknowledged SAP is, created. And that’s public law.
Jared Moskowitz: Well, so that how does I mean, I don’t wanna cut you off,
Tim Burchett: but how
Jared Moskowitz: does a program like that get funded?
David Grusch: I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a closed session. But, mis misappropriation of funds, and does
Jared Moskowitz: that mean that does that mean that there is money in the budget that is set to go to a program, but it doesn’t, and it goes to something else? Yes.
David Grusch: I have specific knowledge of that. Yep.
Jared Moskowitz: Do you think US corporate operations are over overcharging for certain tech they’re selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs. Correct through something called IRAD. Okay. Satellite imagery. Let’s talk about satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place, some that we’re aware of and many that we’re not aware of. Right? We’re taking pictures of everything at every point in second. Mister Grush, are you aware? Do you have direct knowledge? Do we talk to people with direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events?
David Grusch: That was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we, process exploit and disseminate that kind of information. I seen multiple cases, some of which, to my understanding, and of course, I left NGA in April, so that’s my information cut off date. But I personally, reviewed both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were I could not even explain prosaically, and I have a degree in physics, by the way, as well. And I had I am aware that you guys have not seen these, reports, unfortunately. And I don’t know why.
Jared Moskowitz: It is do you have direct knowledge? We’ve spoken people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites, crash crash imagery.
David Grusch: I can’t discuss that in an open session. Okay.
Jared Moskowitz: Do you have any information that the US government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain UAPs.
David Grusch: I can’t go beyond what I’ve already stated publicly in my news Nation interview, because it touches other sensitivities.
Jared Moskowitz: Okay. I’ll yield the balance of my time. Back. Thank you, mister chairman.
Glenn Grothman: Miss Fox,
Virginia Foxx: Thank you, mister chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here today. Mister Garush, in your sworn testimony, you state that the United States government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UAP related artifacts. You go so far as to state that the US is in possession of, quote, non human spacecraft, end quote, and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors. Several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations, albeit in non public settings. However, doctor Sean Kirkpatrick, the director of AARO previously testified before Congress that there has been, and I quote, no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity or of, quote, off world technology brought to the attention of the office. To your knowledge, is that statement correct?
David Grusch: It’s not accurate. I believe Doctor. Patrick, mentioned he had about thirty individuals that have come to Arrow thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to Arrow that I also interviewed. Okay. And I know what they provided Doctor. Patrick and and their team.
Virginia Foxx: Okay.
David Grusch: I was able to evaluate
Virginia Foxx: Okay. I need to go on. Sure. But, my understanding that this His statement is accurate, came from a direct quote, and this contradiction is a perfect example of why need to inject transparency into our government. And for another example, look no further than the pitiful response, to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year. You may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the balloon was first spotted over tenant, four days after it first entered US airspace over Alaska, the Biden administration’s initial inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments. After news of the balloon reached the main street, me mainstream media. We were assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security. However, after the balloon was allowed to transit the entire continental United States, fighter jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down. This flip flopping and obfuscation caused needless confusion fear and panic across the country. It’s my hope, mister chairman, that this sort of confusion will not be repeated. We should investigate the extent to which elements of our government possess or do not possess information that is of critical value to the American people. We owe it to the citizens of this nation to make sure that our government is transparent and accountable. We must make sure that our government provides answers and Congress must do its duty to solicit those answers. With that, mister chairman, I yield back.
Glenn Grothman: Yeah. Mister Frost,
Maxwell Frost: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In two thousand twenty two, NASA announced that it was commissioning an independent study team to examine UAPs. The NASA team is comprised of scientists across different fields as well as former astronauts and pilots. In May, the independent study team held that its first public meeting, which included the perspectives from NASA senior leaders, as well as perspectives from the Department of Defense and Intelligence agencies. The NASA study team is also expected to release its first report pretty soon. And I think it’s safe to say that we all eagerly, await its results. Mister Graves, how might NASA’s research influence the commercial industry regarding safety and UAP.
Ryan Graves: I think NASA has a big role to play as far as commercial aviation’s safe and it’s one of their, original charges as an organization. One of the recommendations that have been put forward is to utilize their existing aviation safety reporting system to serve as a short term fill and trusted platform for pilots that want to report on UAP. It also has built in, analytics capability and is funded by Congress.
Maxwell Frost: Gotcha. And also, mister Graves, are there any other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research on the UAPs? And and if so, how so?
Ryan Graves: Well, I think there is a a large swath of commercial capabilities that could be brought to bear on this topic from space based or ground based sensor systems that are available open source or through commercial marketplaces. And I think NASA’s work as they work to identify and highlight specific parameters that can be found. We can take that information and and promigate this through the public sector so that we can have more open conversation about what we’re seeing.
Maxwell Frost: You know, in twenty twenty, the Department of Defense released several videos of UA Ps, including Mr. Freyer’s, experience, US Navy pilots that recorded footage. In twenty twenty one, the office of the director of National Intelligence released a preliminary report on UAP events. NASA administrator Bill Nelson stated that NASA would begin to investigate these events. In fact, I sit on science based on technology committee, and when we were, doing a hearing with the NASA administrator Bill Nelson, I asked you know, why why NASA needed to be fully funded. And there were many great reasons, but one of them was actually had to do with UAPs. He actually mentioned, you know, is there life out there? I don’t know. And so either way, these actions ultimately led NASA to assemble the independent study team that I mentioned earlier. Also in twenty twenty one, Harvard University stood up the Galileo project, to research and examine the origins of UAP. So it seems like both, you know, from NASA and, in the higher education community because of the work that y’all have done and people standing up, you know, I think we’re seeing some of that stigma, slowly going away. Mr. Fred, do you believe that military pilots feeling empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly, impacted the scientific communities research goals on this topic?
David Fravor: I would say yes. I would say that, you know, starting in twenty seventeen, when it actually came out, it took that stigma away. I mean, I’ve talked to multiple senators who said prior to that, if you’d have mentioned UAP, you’d have been laughed off the hill. And now you we’re sitting here today for a public testimony on what’s actually going on. You know, I I’m I’m hoping that this curve will be more of an exponential, and we’ll get more and more transparent to the level that we can.
Maxwell Frost: Yeah. Yeah. And it yeah. I mean, and it’s important. I couldn’t imagine, you know, I’m not a pilot, but I used to fly gliders. In civil air patrol. Yeah, I got, you know. And so either way, I mean, I couldn’t imagine, you know, being being in the glider and seeing something. And then not feeling like I had the agency to talk about it. Mister Graves, can you discuss the importance of seeking scientists to sit on your advisory board?
Ryan Graves: Absolutely. I think ultimately, this is going to be a sign a specific problem. And not only that, it’s also an engineering problem. I’ve, been working with American Institute of aeronautics and astronaut to help them stand up, a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering prowess into this problem. And so, yes, very much. I think this is a engineering and scientific problem as much as a national security problem.
Maxwell Frost: And how might Congress help to facilitate partnerships between the scientific community and the UAP focus groups within government?
Ryan Graves: Well, I think one of the things they can do is to have these types of hearings to to communicate to the public that this is a topic of interest. I think that there is a a pseudo market, if you will, of interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this topic, and we’re seeing that start to grow now. So I think continued conversation reduction of stigma is going to allow that to flourish and allow answers to help generate themselves.
Maxwell Frost: A hundred percent. Well, thank you all for being here and thank you for your work. I think it’s important that we keep our top scientific minds focused on this issue, and look for ways to increase collaboration. Thank you so much. I yelled back.
Glenn Grothman: Mister Comer,
SPEAKER 13: thank you, mister chairman. Let me say I wanna thank you for having this hearing, and I wanna thank mister Birchett, miss Luna, for leading this hearing. And with that, I yield by five minutes to mister Birchett.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister chairman. I’m gonna direct this, I believe, Mr. Grush, but if any of you all feel like you need to jump in, just jump right in, and we’re good. As the US government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial, otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence And if so, when do you think this first occurred?
David Grusch: I like to use the term non human. I don’t like to denote origin. Keeps the aperture open, both scientifically. Certainly, like I’ve discussed publicly, previously nineteen thirties.
Tim Burchett: Can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct firsthand knowledge, and access to some of this crash retrieval some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities, military bases that would the recovered material would be in. I know a lot of Congress talked about we’re gonna go to area fifty one and, you know, and there’s nothing there anymore anyway. It’s just you know, and we move like a glacier as soon as we announce it. I’m sure the moving vans would pull up, but please.
David Grusch: I can’t discuss it publicly, but I did provide that information both to the Intel committees in the inspector general.
Tim Burchett: And we could get that in the Skiff. If we were allowed to get in a Skiff with you, would that be probably what you would think? Sure.
David Grusch: If you had the appropriate accesses. Yeah.
Tim Burchett: What special access programs cover this information, and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long?
David Grusch: I do know the names. Once again, I can’t discuss that publicly and and how they’ve evaded oversight. I in a close setting, I can tell you the specific tradecraft use.
Tim Burchett: Alright. When do when do you think those programs began and who authorized them?
David Grusch: I do know a lot of that information, but that’s something I can’t discuss publicly because since it
Tim Burchett: is Alright. Many y’all wanna jump in on any of this, you’re more than welcome to. What level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs?
David Grusch: Well, anybody who has, And I
Tim Burchett: and I say that because myself representative Gates and representative Luna were basically turned away at one point — Mhmm.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: —
Tim Burchett: at Eglen. So please go out ahead.
David Grusch: Certainly a difference between member access and say somebody like me, but anybody who has a, you know, TSSI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria. The access adjudicated authority should be able to grant you access. Yeah.
Matt Gaetz: Miss Birchher, if you’ll yield, so just to be put a fine point on that, There’s nothing that you’re aware of that’s above special access program classification.
David Grusch: It it’s a misnomer that there’s anything above top secret, executive order thirteen five twenty six delineates the classification levels.
Robert Garcia: Right.
Matt Gaetz: And but I I draw a point on that because we can have access to to those programs And so the notion that we’re not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress. Thank you, mister Birch. I’ll go back to you.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister Gates. Along those lines, Title ten, you may not know this or not, but, Title ten and Title fifty authorization I was just they they seem to say they’re inefficient. It so who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past?
David Grusch: It’s a group of career, senior executive officials.
Tim Burchett: Okay. Are they government officials?
David Grusch: Both in and out.
Tim Burchett: New what?
David Grusch: Both in and out of government. And that’s about as far as
Tim Burchett: I can
Andrew Ogles: go there here.
Tim Burchett: Alright. Well, that’s it leads to my next question. Which private corporations are directly involved in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs, to your knowledge? I mean, we know we know we we audit the Pentagon every year. And I’ve been here five years and they failed the dad gum thing every year. They, lose over a billion dollars a year, we think. And I’ve just told Department of Defense, maybe sixty percent of their assets are unaccounted for whatever the heck that means. In the public sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So tell me.
David Grusch: Yeah. I know when I, I’m a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher, I get hammered, but, seems like it doesn’t work the
Andrew Biggs: other way. Right? If you sell
Tim Burchett: over six hundred dollars worth of stuff on eBay, now you get a call from the IRS. So please, what corporations?
David Grusch: Yeah. I don’t know these specific metrics towards the end of your question. The specific corporations I did provide, to the committees. In specific divisions. And, I spent eleven and a half hours with both Intel committees.
Tim Burchett: So Okay. Has there been any This has ever been an active US government disinformation campaign that denied the existence of unaddi an unidentified aerial phenomena, and if so, why?
David Grusch: I can’t go beyond what I’ve already espouse publicly about that.
Eric Burlison: What
Anna Paulina Luna: you said
Tim Burchett: Okay. I’ve been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it in the record.
David Grusch: Which which,
Anna Paulina Luna: what have you stated publicly in your interviews for the congressional record?
David Grusch: Yeah. If you, reference my news Nation interview and I talk about a multi decade, you know, campaign to, disenfranchise public interest, basically.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Thank you.
Tim Burchett: I apologize, mister chairman. I yelled back negative twenty one seconds.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. Miss Ocasio Cortez,
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Thank you, mister chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here today. I do concur with the ranking members, well as several other members here on this committee that This is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well. So we understand, what you’re putting, on the table here, and we’re putting on the line here, and we thank you for that. Mister crush, you sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task force created in the twenty twenty NDA. Correct?
David Grusch: Yes.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: There have been some things that, that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on, mister Graves, you mentioned specifically during the answers to one of your questions. You named Boeing contractors, being engaged in an regarding this red cube about a football, a football field wide. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction or Mr. Grush, either of you, the interactions between defense contractor companies and any UAP related programs or activities.
Ryan Graves: So I’ll just say that the information about, the contract himself were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Mister Gresh.
David Grusch: The kind of general unclass wave tops, certainly the contractors, you know, or the metal benders, so to speak, that the ones actually doing specific, performance on government contracts.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Are they required, to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings, or do they engage in any reporting around this?
David Grusch: In terms of the contractors, not that I’m aware of.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: They do not. Okay. Now when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about, IRAP pro I read programs We have seen, defense contractors abuse, their contracts before through this committee. I have seen it personally And I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused. I am wondering one of the loop holes that we see in the law is that there is, at least from my vantage point, is that depending on what we’re seeing is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification? Are there what methods of notification did you observe? Like, when they say they notified Congress, How did they do that? Do you have insight into that?
David Grusch: For certain IWAD activities, that’d be, I can only think of one’s conventional in nature. Sometimes they throw, flow through certain, out of, say, SaaS programs that have cognizant authority over the air force or something. And those are congressionally reported compartments, but IRAD is literally internal to the contractor. So as long as it’s money, either profits, private investment, etcetera, they do whatever
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: they want. To put a finer point on it, when there is a requirement for any agency or company to notify or any agency to notify Congress. Do they contact the chairman of a committee? Do they get them on the phone specifically? Is this through an email to hypothetically a dead email box?
David Grusch: A lot of it comes through what they call the PPR periodic program view process
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: —
David Grusch: Mhmm. — if it’s a, you know, a SAP or controlled access program equity, and then those go to the specific committees, whether SaaS, Cassie.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Thank you. I apologize. I I just my time is limited. Mister Graves, one of your main concerns that the AA currently does not have an official process to receive reports of UAP from pilots or others. Correct?
Ryan Graves: Correct.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: And, in your experience, what data should the Arrow Program prioritize for potential collection? We have, you know, location date time, but are there other specific active characteristics that should be included in these reports.
Ryan Graves: Certainly. I think that there’s two categories that would be important. One would be kinematics and understanding this specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving. And the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to, look at origin and destination, after before the incident. As well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these, these objects are interacting with each other.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Thank you. Now, because I only have a minute left. I apologize. We only have five minutes today. But, for the record, if you were me, where would you look? Titles, programs, departments, regions. If you could just name anything. And I put that as an open question to the three of you.
David Grusch: I’d be happy to give you that in a closed environment. I can tell you specifically.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Thank you. Commander Frever?
David Fravor: I would say, and I’ve told people that you you have to know where to look. They’re not gonna divulge it to you. Because of classification levels. But if you know where to look and who to talk to, which is exactly where mister Gresham can point you, then you then you have them.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Okay. Mister Graves?
Ryan Graves: I was an operator, so I was defending on folks like mister Grush to do that homework.
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez: Okay. Thank you very much. I yield back to the chair.
Andrew Biggs: Mister Beggs? Thanks. Thanks, mister chairman. I thank the witnesses for being here today. I’m over here. Thank you so much for being here. I I wanna get into, specifics here, and and reason I’m gonna go this way is because you’ve talked a bit about, what I would call misdirection by, official US government with regard to UIPs. Right? And so I’m gonna get to that in a second. But last week, White House NSC spokesman John Kirby stated that UFPs are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with the statements? That’s for each of you.
David Grusch: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Andrew Biggs: Okay. Now having said that, I’m gonna take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that’s where I I live. In ninety seven, we had the famous Phoenix light case. I don’t know if any of you are familiar with that. There were there were two things that went along with that. And the explanation was military training range, off Luke, and the Berry Gold Water range. Do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights?
David Grusch: Only what’s in the public vernacular about it. That was outside the scope of my duties.
Andrew Biggs: And if we wanted to just my question along with colleague from New York Mizzacazio Cortez, if we wanted to find out more about that, where would we go to find the files and who where and who would we address? And are you gonna tell me we need to go to a skiff so you can tell us in a skiff?
David Grusch: I could potentially give you a vector on that. That specific case, I’m not I mean, I’m familiar with it in terms of public, but, I give you a vector in closed environment. Yeah.
Andrew Biggs: That would be good. Thank you. So if if it’s true that UAPs are having an impact on training ranges, and this administration considers it to be a legitimate issue, what steps can Congress take to address training range impacts. And I say that having two very large training ranges in my state, And so we’ll start with mister Graves in going down the the panel.
Ryan Graves: Some of the initial procedures have been implemented, such as within the United States Navy have a range follow report that gathers information from pilots. I understand that a service wide reporting mechanism is still pending. However, that would be a great next step. Not only for gathering information, but for showing the troops that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma.
Andrew Biggs: Okay. Please, I’ll be continue.
David Grusch: Yeah. As a recipient of a lot of those training range reports, sometimes we only get contextual kind of, oral, reporting. It’d be nice if they attach all sensor data, and there’s a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data. And that’s an issue with the F thirty five. Right? That jet was never built to be an our platform. And it’s a pain in the, what do you say, but, to get that data off. So yeah. Great.
Andrew Biggs: Thank you.
David Fravor: I would agree with the previous two being a user of those training ranges, that the data has to be out there. You have to acknowledge that you’re seeing them, and then you have to affect the data. Right now, you get to report someone says I saw something, but no one collects the radar data to to back it up and do research.
Andrew Biggs: Okay. Do you believe that the twenty nineteen classification guidelines for UIPs interferes with the federal government’s ability to be transparent with the American people And do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people? All of you. Yeah.
Ryan Graves: I’ll I’ll say yes to that. Yeah.
David Grusch: I’m familiar with the the at least the UAP task force twenty nineteen security classification guide. I think it’s fair. I did actually help, author that with the
Andrew Biggs: Uh-oh, you got you gotta bias that
David Grusch: way then. But I will say, I’ll call it a lazy attitude about declassifying videos. I mean, I’ve seen some of the videos of, you know, the recent shoot down, and I saw no reason that couldn’t have been released as long as they mask, you know, some data. The American people deserve to see that that imagery in in full motion video?
David Fravor: I would think Well, in my opinion, I will say things are over classified. I know for a fact, the video or the pictures that came out in the twenty twenty twenty report that had the stuff off the East Coast. They were taken with an iPhone off the East Coast. The buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he said they originally classified a TSSCI. And my question to him was, what’s TSSCI about these? They’re an iPhone
Andrew Biggs: Right.
David Fravor: literally off the vacapes. That’s not TSSCI. So they’re over classified. And as soon as they do that, they go in a vault, and then you all have to look for them.
Andrew Biggs: Yeah. So with the over classification, that may be one way. Are there other ways that the, DOD or intelligence agencies are keeping this information from the American people or even from Congress?
Ryan Graves: I think part of that has been, not encouraging reporting. If the problem is not something that can be measured, it’s not something that’s gonna be fixed.
Andrew Biggs: Okay. Very good. Well, I’m out of time, and I thank you, Ms. Chairman, and now you’re back?
Glenn Grothman: First of all, without objection, representative Nick Langworthy of New York is waived down the subcommittee. For purpose of questioning witnesses is today’s sub committee hearing. And then we go to mister Burlson.
Eric Burlison: Thank you, mister chairman. Appreciate you guys coming out today testifying. Look, I’ve been here for six months. And I’m pretty skeptical. I don’t trust anything in this town. And, and so I and I think that’s because I’m from Missouri. You’ve gotta show me. Right? With that being said, there’s been a lot of things that have been said, in in the public, Mr. Grush. And and so I wanna get down to if we can, some specifics. Right? So, at one point, you had said that they’re they’re they’re they’re has been harmful activity or aggressive activity. Has any of the activity been aggressive and, hostile? In your reports?
David Grusch: I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured. And, the activity
Eric Burlison: I gotta By by UAPs or by by people within the the federal government, both. Okay. So there has been activity by, by alien or non non human technology and or beings that has caused harm to humans?
David Grusch: I can’t get into the specifics in an open environment, but at least the activity that I personally witnessed and not to be very careful here, because you don’t, you know, they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft. Right? So what I personally witnessed myself and my wife, was very disturbing.
Eric Burlison: Okay. One of my constituents
David Grusch: actually sent
Eric Burlison: this next question, and I figured I’d ask it since I had the same thought. You’ve said that US ent has intact space spacecraft. You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen have you have you seen the spacecraft?
David Grusch: I have to be careful to describe what I’ve seen, firsthand and not in this environment, but I I could answer that question behind behind closed doors here.
Tim Burchett: And have
Eric Burlison: you seen any of
David Grusch: the bodies? That’s something I’ve I’ve not witnessed myself. Okay. And so with that being said, you know, you
Eric Burlison: have other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it’s intriguing because my my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any any other system. And the concept that an alien species that’s technologically advanced enough to travel billions in the light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far fetched. And with that being said, you have mentioned that there’s interdimensional potential could you expand on that?
David Grusch: Oh, yeah. To answer your first question, and, you know, I’m here as a fact, witness, an expert, but I I will give you a, a theoretical framework, at least, to work off to kind of spouse, crashes, regardless of, you know, your level of sentience, right? You know, planes crash, cars crash, N number of sorties, what, however, high, a small percentage are going to end in, you know, mission failure, if you will, as we say, in the in the air force. And then in terms of, multi dimensionality, that kind of thing. The the framework that I’m familiar with, for example, is something called the holographic principle, both it’s it derives itself from general relativity and, quantum mechanics. And that is if you wanna imagine, a three d objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a two d surface. That’s the holographic principle. So you can be projected, quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It’s a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand, but there’s probably guys with PhDs that we could probably argue that.
Eric Burlison: But you have not seen any documentation that that’s what’s occurring.
David Grusch: Only a theoretical framework discussion.
Eric Burlison: Yes. Okay. Okay. Aacam’s razor is that this, these aircraft have they been identified that they are being produced by by domestic, you know, military contractors? Is there any evidence that that’s what’s being
David Fravor: recovered? Not
David Grusch: to my knowledge, plus the recoveries predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am waiting of. So
Eric Burlison: would it be safe to say that there could be scenario today where you have, an aircraft that crashes And because it’s been involved in one program from one federal agency and the but the but the agency that trieves it, does is not aware of that program and to them, it it appears alien in origin.
David Grusch: Mean, that’s a hypothetical situation. I’m not aware of any, historical situation that would match that that you described.
Eric Burlison: So You’re not aware it has not happened that you’re aware of. That I’m aware of. Thank you, mister chairman. I yield back Several months
Matt Gaetz: ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglen Air Force Base indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention. I saw briefing regarding that episode and brought with me congressman, Birchett, and congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor and to observe any radar signature, as long as, as well as to meet with the flight crew. We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew. And initially, we were not afforded access to images and to radar. Thereafter, we had, bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America. And we did see the image. And we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image. The image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability either from the United States or from any of our adversaries And I’m somewhat informed on the matter having served on the armed services committee for seven years, having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and Advanced Technologies for several years. When we spoke with the flight crew, and when he showed us the photo that he’d taken, I asked why the video wasn’t engaged. Why we didn’t have a flir system that worked. Here’s what he said. They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico, And when you’re on a test mission, you’re supposed to have clear air space. Not supposed to be anything that shows up. And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation for which there is a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress. One of the pilots goes to check out that Diamond formation and sees a large floating I can only describe as an orb, again, like I said, not of any human capability that I’m that I’m aware of. And when he approached, he said that his radar went down. He said that his flir system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses, and it was not automatic automated, in collection, as you would typically see in a test mission. So, I guess I’ll start with Commander Frever. In well, how should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot, had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft.
David Fravor: Well, I think this goes to that national security side and you can go back through history of things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities, which is disheartening. And for us, I mean, like I said, it it completely disabled the radar and the aircraft when I tried to do it. The only way we could see it is passively, which is how he got that image. So I think that’s a that’s a concern on what are these doing? Not only how do they operate, but their capabilities inside to do things like this.
Matt Gaetz: And and how should we think about Forecraft moving in a very clear formation equidistant from one another, in a diamond in all of the phenomenon, perhaps, mister Grave, that you’ve analyzed, have we ever seen multiple craft in a in a single formation?
Ryan Graves: I have one particular case and that was, during the gimbal incident. The recording on the AT flier system shows a single object that rotates, You hear the pilots refer to a a fleet of objects that is not visible on the flir system, and and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page I would like to add whoever congressman. There’s small, small bit of, anger, I would say. I would feel that those pilots are still facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they don’t have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an important issue for our pilots and for our nation.
Matt Gaetz: It was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a you of AP experience, The best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting either above the surface or below the surface does have a perceived consequence to these people. And that is a culture we must change if we wanna get to the truth. Miss chairman, I I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing, there are some obvious next steps. Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with mister Grush in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that and that give us the information we need. Second, I would suggest that the radar images from, that were collected of this formation of craft out of Agland Air Force Base, and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate, be provided to the committee subpoenaed if necessary so that we’re able to track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a more fulsome way. That would be my recommendation. Humbly as a guest here of the fine oversight committee. Y’all back.
Glenn Grothman: Miss Mace?
Nancy Mace: Thank you, mister chairman, and good morning to our witnesses who are defying today. I wanna thank each of you for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our national security. Earlier this year, Chinese spy balloon was shot down the coast of my home state of South Carolina. Since the Roswell incident in nineteen forty seven, many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects criss cross seeing our skies. Whether these are UAPs or weather phenomena, advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces or something more out of this world. So my first question, I have several questions, and I’ll I if we can just be quick on these first two, I’m gonna ask each of you the same question, and then I’ll get to each of you individually. The first one, when you reported your experiences with the UAP, did any of you face any repercussions with your superiors? Yes or no? No.
David Grusch: Oh, I’ve actually never seen anything personally believe it or not. So
Nancy Mace: Alright. And then do do you believe there’s an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of UAPs? Yes or no?
Ryan Graves: I don’t have an answer to that.
David Grusch: As preview previously stated publicly, yes.
David Fravor: I think previously, it would like Project Blue Book. Yes. But currently, I don’t speak for the United States government.
Nancy Mace: Okay. Thank you. I have a few questions for mister Graves. What percentage of UA peace sightings in your belief go unreported by our pilots.
Ryan Graves: This is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I would estimate we’re somewhere near five percent reporting perhaps.
Nancy Mace: So, like, ninety five percent basically don’t report seeing UAPs.
Ryan Graves: That’s just my personal estimate.
Nancy Mace: In the incident offered in your beach, do you believe the navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously after it was reported?
Ryan Graves: Absolutely.
Nancy Mace: A few questions for mister Favor, as an expert naval aviator, have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the TikTAC UAP? No. Did the Tic Tac UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics?
David Fravor: The way we understand them, yes.
Nancy Mace: Many dismiss u UAP reports as classified weapons testing by our own government, but in your experience as a pilot, does our government typically test advanced weapon systems right next to multi million dollar jets without informing our pilots.
David Fravor: No. We have test ranges for that.
Nancy Mace: It took over fifteen years for your encounter with the Tic Tac to be declassified. Do you feel there was a good reason to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage?
David Fravor: No. I just think it was ignored when it happened, and it just sat somewhere in a file. Never got reported.
Nancy Mace: It enjoyed. It happens a lot up here, shocker. Mr. Grush, a couple of questions for you too, sir, this morning. What percentage of UAPs do you feel are adequately investigated by the US government of the five percent of that are reported.
David Grusch: I can only speak for, my personal leadership over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage. So
Nancy Mace: Do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight authority?
David Grusch: There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I’m not sure what they’ve shared with certain gang of eight members or etcetera, but, certainly, I would not be surprised.
Nancy Mace: Okay. You’ve stated that the government is in possession of potentially non human spacecraft based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts. Do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials?
David Grusch: Something I can’t discuss in public setting.
Nancy Mace: Okay. And I can’t ask when do you think this occurred? If you believe we have crashed craft stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft?
David Grusch: As I’ve stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, Biologics came with some of these recoveries. Yeah.
Nancy Mace: Were they, I guess, human or non human biologics?
David Grusch: Non human, and that was the assessment of people, with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.
Nancy Mace: And was this documentary evidence’s video, photos, eyewitness? Like, how would that be determined?
David Grusch: The specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a skiff about.
Nancy Mace: Gotcha. Okay. So and and you may or may not be able to answer my last question, and maybe we get into a skiff at the next hearing that we have. But who in the government either what agency, sub agency, what contractors, who should be called into the next hearing about UAPs, either in a public setting or even in a private setting. And and you probably can’t name names, but what agencies or organizations, contractors, etcetera? Do we need to call in to get these questions answered whether it’s about funding, what programs are happening, and what’s out there.
David Grusch: I can give you a specific, cooperative, and hostile witness list, of specific individuals, that were in those.
Nancy Mace: And and how soon can we get that list?
David Grusch: I’m happy to provide that to you after the hearing.
Nancy Mace: Super. Thank you. And I yield back.
Glenn Grothman: Okay. Now we have mister Lang with his ear.
Nick Langworthy: Okay. Thank you very much. I I’d like to thank all of the witnesses for being here today, to discuss this very unique topic. And I’d like to jump right into my questions if you don’t mind. Commander Frever, can you briefly describe your background?
David Fravor: Yeah. I was a enlisted marine naval academy graduate. Navy flew for eighteen years. Got a master’s from University Houston. And I’ve worked in the private sector for the last what now. Nineteen, sixteen years, seventeen years. I do a lot of defense work.
Nick Langworthy: So, really gold plated credentials. Commander fravor have we have all seen the floating Tic Tac video that you engage with on November fourteenth two thousand four. Can you briefly talk about why you were off the coast
David Fravor: of San Diego that day? Yeah. We were at a workup with all the battle group we integrate the ships with the carrier, the air wing with the carrier, and we start working. So we’re doing an air air defense to hone not only our skills, but those of the USS Princeton. When they had been tracking them for two weeks, problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them, and this was the first day. And, unfortunately, we were the ones airborne and went and saw it.
Nick Langworthy: Do you remember the weather that day? Was it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the Pacific coast?
David Fravor: It was actually if if you familiar with San Diego, it was a perfect day. Light winds, no white caps, clear skies, not a cloud. It was a for a flying, it was the best.
Nick Langworthy: Now is it true that you saw in your words a forty foot flying TikTok shaped object?
David Fravor: That’s correct. Or for some people that can’t know what a Tic
Nick Langworthy: Tac is. It’s a giant flying propane tank. Fair enough. Did this object come up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton?
David Fravor: The Princeton tracked it, the Nimitz tracked it, the E two tracked it. We’d never saw it on our radars. Our fire control radar never picked it up. The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar as soon as it tried to lock it, jammed the radar, spit the lock, and he he’s rapidly switched over to the targeting pod, which he can do in the in the f eighteen.
Nick Langworthy: From what you saw that day and what you’ve seen on video, did you see any source of propulsion from the flying object including on any potential thermal scans from your aircraft?
David Fravor: No. There’s none. There’s no ir plume coming out, and Chad who took the video went through all the eo, which black and white TV and the IR modes, and there’s no visible signs of propulsion. It’s just
Nick Langworthy: sitting in space at twenty thousand feet. In in your career, have you ever seen a propulsion system creates no thermal exhaust? No. Can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered? Abruptly,
David Fravor: very determinant. It knew exactly what it was doing. It was aware of our presence, and it had acceleration rates. That mean it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all.
Nick Langworthy: Now if the fastest plane on earth was trying to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable of doing that? No. Not even close. And just to confirm, this object had no wings. Correct? No wings. Now was the aircraft that you were flying was it armed? No. Never felt threatened at all. If if the aircraft was armed, do you believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United States could have shot the TikTok down. I’d say no. Just on the performance, it would just left. In a in a split second. It looks like that we have a problem here that needs further investigation. Yes.
Tim Burchett: In your belief, is
David Grusch: this this flying Tic Tac?
Nick Langworthy: I mean, is this, is it capable of being the product of any other nation on the earth?
David Fravor: No. I I actually said, like I said earlier, I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion And I I know there’s been some physicists of them calculations, which is beyond anything that we have.
Nick Langworthy: Well, either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don’t know, or we really have some serious investigations to do. I I really appreciate you being here. Is there anything else about the November fourteenth two thousand four incident that you think is important for this committee to know that you haven’t been asked here today?
David Fravor: No. I I I, you know, it’s it’s been said. It’s probably the most credible UFO sighting in history based on all the sensors that we’re tracking it, and then for us to get visual. And to go against the naysayers, it’s something on the screen or whatever. I mean, there’s four sets of human eyeballs. We’re all very credible of the six of us that were involved in including the video. Every one of us is gonna do twenty plus years in the military in very responsible positions. So I’d say the world needs to know that. This it’s not a joke.
Nick Langworthy: Oh, thank you very much for your testimony here today for all of you, and I yield back, mister chairman.
Glenn Grothman: Miss Douglas,
Andrew Ogles: Thank you, mister chairman. And thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward. And and, again, the sacrifice that each you have made I serve on the National Security Sub Committee for the Financial Services Committee, so I really wanna stay in the National Security Lane, if I may. So when we think about traditional adversaries and, both us, towards them and them towards us, you know, we probe their capabilities. We look for weaknesses, and we we collect that data, that reconnaissance for any in the event we need it in the future. For each of you, yes or no question, based off of your own experience or the data that you’ve been privy to, Is there any indication that these UAPs could be, essentially, collecting reconnaissance information, mister Graves?
Ryan Graves: Yes.
Andrew Ogles: Mister Grush?
David Grusch: Fair assessment. Yeah.
Andrew Ogles: Mister Fraver.
David Fravor: Very possible.
Andrew Ogles: Again, in the National Security vein, is it possible that these UIPs would be probing our capabilities. Yes or no, mister Graves?
Ryan Graves: Yes.
David Grusch: Rush? Yes. Raven. Definitely.
Andrew Ogles: Is it possible that these UAPs are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems?
Ryan Graves: Yes.
David Grusch: Yes. Possible.
Andrew Ogles: Do you feel based off of your experience and information that you’ve been privy to that these UPA UAP’s provide, an existential threat to the national security of the United States, mister Graves?
Ryan Graves: Potentially.
Andrew Ogles: Yes, sir. Potentially.
David Grusch: Same answer potentially. Yeah. I’d say definitely potentially.
Andrew Ogles: Mister Graves and Fravor, you know, in the event that your encounters have become hostile. Would you have would a would you have had the capability to defend yourself, your crew, your aircraft?
Ryan Graves: Absolutely not, sir. No.
Andrew Ogles: Is based off of the information that you’ve been privy to? Is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities? Yes.
David Grusch: By external observation, sure that could be a fair assessment. Yeah.
David Fravor: Yes.
Andrew Ogles: Is there any indication that Department of Energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing?
Ryan Graves: I don’t have an answer.
David Grusch: I can’t confirm or deny that in public setting.
Andrew Ogles: And could you do it in a in a secure setting?
David Grusch: Yes. Mister Fraver? No. I don’t know.
Andrew Ogles: Mister chairman, you know, I think I’m the last member to go, but there clearly is a threat to the national security of the United States of America. As members of Congress, we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities so that if appropriate, we take action. I would encourage the chairman to demand that we have any and all, but in particular, mister Grush, talk to us in a skiff. And if that access is denied, I will personally volunteer to, initiate the home and rule against any personnel or any, program or any agency that denies act access to Congress. Mister chairman, with that, I will yield the remainder of my time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee, Mr. Birch.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, mister Ogles, for the great questions, brother. Mister Grush, I might have asked this before, but I wanna make sure. Do you have any personal knowledge of someone who’s possibly been injured working on legacy UAP reverse engineering? Yes. K. How were they injured? Was it is it something like a radioactive type situation or something we didn’t understand? I’ve heard people talk about other Havana Syndrome type incidences. What what was your recollection of that?
David Grusch: I can’t get in the specifics, but you could imagine assessing an an unknown unknown there’s a lot of potentialities you can’t fully prepare for.
Tim Burchett: How do you think we ought to handle UAP whistleblower complaints like yours in the in the future?
David Grusch: Yeah. There was some issue with mine. So, you know, PPD nineteen process, it goes to the intel committees, either through PPD nineteen or ICD one twenty, There’s not a good way for the intelligence community inspector general to provide that to other committees. And I asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate Armed Services Committee because there are Title ten equities at play, but there was no smooth process to do so.
Tim Burchett: Yeah. That’s a trash can. Are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non terrestrial craft?
David Grusch: Personally, yes. Mhmm.
Tim Burchett: Do you know anyone that would be willing to testify if there were protections for them?
David Grusch: Certainly closed door and assurances, breaking their NDA, they’re not going to get administratively punished for so.
Tim Burchett: Yeah. I yield mister chairman.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. I’m gonna do something a little bit out of the ordinary here. We’re gonna give three people a chance at additional three minutes So, mister Birch, do you wanna keep going?
Tim Burchett: Why don’t you come back to me, miss chairman? Miss Lona, if she is on the is she on that list?
Eric Burlison: I’m on the Sure.
Anna Paulina Luna: Chairman, I’d like submit for the record, an article by News Nation, and it follows, Mr. Grush’s full interview for the record.
Glenn Grothman: Without objection.
Anna Paulina Luna: Thank you. Mister Grush, why is it that you, refer to the phenomenon as non human intelligence, why deviate from the basis of extra trust your life?
David Grusch: I think the phenomenon, is, very complex, and I like to leave an open mind and lead to specific origin.
Anna Paulina Luna: When you say specific origin, are you referring can you elaborate on that for those that might work?
David Grusch: If it’s a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don’t quite understand, from either a biological or astrophysics perspective. Yeah. I just like the keep an open mind on what it could be. Yeah.
Anna Paulina Luna: Okay. And, referring to your news nation interview, you had referenced, specific treaties between governments, Article three of the nuclear arms treaty with Russia identifies UAPs. It specifically mentions them. To your knowledge, are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other super powers to avoid an escalate escalatory situation in the event that a UAP, malevolent malevolent event occurs.
David Grusch: Yeah, you’re referring to actual, a public treaty in the UN register. It’s funny you mentioned that you have the agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak and nuclear war sign in nineteen seventy one, unclassified treaty publicly available. And if you cite the George Washington University National Security Archives. You will find the declassified in twenty thirteen specific provisions in this specific, red line flash message traffic with the specific codes pursuant to article three an article, also situation two, which is in the the previously classified NSA archive. What I would recommend, and I I tried to get us, but, I got a wall of silence at the White House. Was those specific incidents when those, Message traffic was used. I think, some scholarship on that would open the door to, further investigation, using those publicly available information.
Anna Paulina Luna: Thank you. And then my last question with fifty one seconds remaining, you mentioned white collar crimes potentially being, taking place in regards to a cover up. Can you please elaborate?
David Grusch: I have concerns based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties of, potential violations of the Federal acquisition regulations, the Far.
Anna Paulina Luna: Thank you very much, Herman. I yield the remainder of my time.
Glenn Grothman: Okay. We’ll go to mister Raskin for three minutes.
Jamie Raskin: Thanks, mister chair. And I think the witnesses for their, endurance and service today. Mister Frever, you’ve described your episode in detail now, and you call it, the most credible UFO site UFO sighting in history, but I wonder, was this the first time that you encountered a a UFO or a UAP? In two thousand four?
David Fravor: Yes.
Jamie Raskin: And what was your general attitude or perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened?
David Fravor: I I never felt that we were alone with all the planets out there, but Pat wasn’t a UFO person. I wasn’t I wasn’t watching history channel and Mufon and all that.
Jamie Raskin: And, have you had ex experiences or encounters since that happened? No. And so have you formed any general conclusions about what you think you experienced then?
David Fravor: Yes. I think what we experienced was, like I said, well beyond the material science and the capabilities that we had at the time, that we have currently or that we’re gonna have in the next ten to twenty years.
Jamie Raskin: Very good. Mmister Gresham, you’ve been able to answer in great detail on certain questions. And then other things you say, you’re not able, to respond to. Can you just explain where you’re drawing the line what what’s the basis for that?
David Grusch: Yeah. Based on my dobser security review, and what they’ve determined that is unclassified.
Jamie Raskin: I see. So you’re answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of unclassified questions, but anything that relates to classified matters you’re not commenting on in this context?
David Grusch: In an open session, but happy to participate in a closed session at the right level. Yeah.
Jamie Raskin: Okay. And mister Graves, you said that there there are dozens of fellow pilots, military pilots, are there also commercial pilots who’ve, encountered the same, the same kind of sightings that you described before.
Ryan Graves: They are similar. Pilots, commercial pilots have, less range and less sensors to be able to reach out and look for objects over wide swaths of airspace. And so pilots RCM, commercial pilots RCM, and they’re typically closer and the range of what they’re seeing is is pretty large.
Jamie Raskin: Well, what is the most vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye, of the objects that you described before the cube like objects.
Ryan Graves: Certainly. I think the most, vivid sighting of that would have been near a a near mid air that we had at the entrance to our working area One of these objects was, completely stationary at the exact entrance, to our working areas, not only geographically, but also at altitude. So it was right where all the jets are going essentially on the eastern seaboard. The two aircraft flew within about fifty feet of the object, and that was a a very close visual sighting.
Jamie Raskin: And you were in one of the aircraft?
Ryan Graves: I was not. I was there when the pilot landed. He canceled the mission after. I was there. He was in the ready room with all his gear on with his, mouth open. And I asked him what the problem was. And he said he almost hit one of those darn things.
Jamie Raskin: He said he was fifty feet away from it.
Ryan Graves: Yes, sir.
Jamie Raskin: And his description of the object was consistent with the description you gave us before.
Ryan Graves: A dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere?
Jamie Raskin: Inside of a clear sphere. Yes. And with no self evident propulsion system.
Ryan Graves: No wings, no higher energy coming off of the vehicle. Nothing tethering it to the ground. And that was that was primarily what we were experiencing out there.
Jamie Raskin: I’m over time. Thank you very much for your service, and I’ll go back to mister Sherman.
Glenn Grothman: Very good. Mr. Birch.
Tim Burchett: Thank you, mister chairman. This is for all three of y’all starting with Mr. Graves. Why did you come forward on this issue?
Ryan Graves: I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to mitigate the safety threat, and I wanted to help them. I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the navy, and this seemed it just it just felt right. I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this.
Tim Burchett: Mister Grush,
David Grusch: purely a sense of duty. I first swore an oath when I was cadet eighteen years ago, and I I still uphold that even out of uniform. Commander.
David Fravor: I was pestered, by a friend. And I asked why? And he said, you’re the one person that they can’t discredit and you’ll credibility to the New York Times article. And so after about six times, I said, okay.
Tim Burchett: This town isn’t, made to unfortunately by people like y’all. We thank y’all. And I do wanna also thank the people in the audience the people that are watching this, there can’t be people all over the world that have kept this issue alive. You’ve endured criticism, and derogatory remarks, and we’re trying to get to the bottom of it. And so god bless y’all. Thank you all so much. We really appreciate you guys and gals. That’s why we need term limits. Y’all keep clapping us politicians. Just keep talking. So let me ask y’all, how can would the public contribute to UAP reporting? And what avenues you think are available to the public to report these sightings?
Ryan Graves: Right now, I don’t think there is a lot of, public options for the every man to be able to report on this. I think even for professionals that have sensor data that are seeing these on a regular basis, they’re still hesitant to come forward. And so for the general public, I think encouraging the conversations that we’re having today, looking for technology solutions that can be distributed, so the objective data can be gathered is the first place to go.
David Grusch: Mister Grash, I’ll just touch on the whistleblower side of it. I do encourage, you know, current former military intelligence community and industry contractors to come forward in a legal way either through the IC or DOD or whatever the Cognizant IDs are, to to lead, you know, lead, you know, join me in this discussion. Commander, and I
Tim Burchett: I guess I should say this for the record. My daddy was United States Marine Corps, first Marine Division.
David Fravor: So Uber?
Tim Burchett: Yes, sir. He was old school him and chesty puller on Paolo, so thank you, brother.
David Grusch: Wow.
Tim Burchett: Yes, sir. I’m not I’m not anything like my daddy. He was incredible. I’m very mediocre to say the least, but go ahead.
David Fravor: You seem to be doing fine. Yeah. For me, you know, I was an accident investigator. So the biggest thing they learned, and I think that witnesses need to to do is, one, don’t try and make the fish bigger than it was. Stick to the facts, write it down, and don’t speculate think it is because it will spoil your decision. Just write the facts down. We can get all the facts together and we can start to investigate and get a real honest story instead of It was this big.
Tim Burchett: Thank you all, and I wanna thank everybody. We made a history today. Mister chairman, I yield.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you much, mister Garcia.
Robert Garcia: Pika, I know now we’re gonna be making some closing, remarks. And so I just wanted to say a few things. First, to our witnesses, I wanna thank all of you for, for being here with us today. I know that, it takes a lot, a lot of courage. You’re telling, really important information to this committee, and I just wanna thank you also for you’re all three of you, your service to our country. I also wanna just note that today’s hearing, was both important, but also serious. And I wanna thank our sub committee chairman, mister Gaughman, I think, for for running a very fair and substantive hearing. I do wanna thank the committee staff, on both sides for the amount of work that it took to put this hearing, in place, and certainly to all the members that have been, involved in this issue prior to prior to the hearing. I also wanna note for our witnesses and for the public that I’m I’m a freshman member of Congress, and I’ve only been here for seven months. But this is by far the most, bipartisan conversation and discussion that I have seen happen, in the Congress. And I think that, a topic of this significance as it relates to our national security, as it relates to information that we’re trying to gather for the for the for the American public, does bring people together, and I think that’s been really great, to see. I think it’s also important to note for the public. We, today, in our hearing we had, of course, on our side, also both are full ranking member, which is mister Raskin, and our vice ranking member, which is miss Acasio Cortez, both here at our hearing. I think it shows the importance and seriousness that our side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing, but also the broader issue as it relates to working with our Republican counterparts, on this committee. I wanna, additionally add that I think, and I encourage, I think it’s really important that we have and continue these discussions and these hearings clearly, there’s a lot of information that we don’t know. But it’s also very clear that we have to continue our investigation and accountability on asking the right questions and ensuring that they’re part of the public record. One thing that was important today is, some folks might wonder I mean, why are we asking questions that might already be out there or that have been asked before? It’s important that they’re asked and put into the public record as it relates to this committee. And so I wanna thank you for you know, answering some questions multiple times, I know, not just in maybe meetings you had with some members, but also here, in, in the public. Let me also just add an additional note, that I’ve it’s it’s important also that our, our our friends in the media and those that are not just reporting on this hearing but that have reported on this topic that may in the future, the media has an important role, in this process. And it’s very important that the media engages does independent investigation, and reports on not just what happened today, but what they what they see independently as what is hap happening around UAPs in the broader community. That is also an important, public benefit that we have in trying to get the information and the facts as it relates, to this. Let me also just say finally that as a as a teacher and an educator, a long time a long time teacher and researcher, that I also really believe in following facts in doing your homework, and I’m making sure that you follow science, as we as we try to give most information as possible. And so I wanna thank you all for for agreeing to do that today. Transparency is a cornerstone of government. We live in a in a vast galaxy. A lot of unanswered questions, and thank you all for being here today, Mr. Chairman.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. I’d like to one more time. Thank mister Birch and miss Luna for bringing this to our attention. It’s a topic that has interest me since I was in school. It was a very illuminating hearing. Obviously, I think several of us are gonna look forward to, getting some answers in a more confidential setting. I assume some legislation will come out of this. I I’m sure.
Tim Burchett: I apologize, mister chairman. I need to compliment the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on this. Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here. They’re very quiet and humble, but without them, this thing would not have come off like it did. So I apologize.
Glenn Grothman: Thank you. I think we’re gonna wanna look into what we can do to make more of this information public. I think there’s certainly a time period after which it should always be made public, and people have been concerned about these issues. Like I said, since I was in high school. But in any event, like to thank everybody who was here sticking through through the entire hearing without, objection, the members will have five legislative days to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witness witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. If there’s no further business without objection, the sub committee stands adjourned.